In this episode Jan Pleskac, CEO and co-founder of Tropic Square, shares insights on the challenges and innovations in creating open and auditable hardware. While most hardware is very closed, Tropic Square is working to change this. WE discuss how open source can enhance security, the complexities of integrating third-party technologies, and the future of secure computing devices.
Episode Links
This episode is also available as a podcast, search for “Open Source Security” on your favorite podcast player.
Episode Transcript
Josh Bressers (00:00) Today open source security is talking to Jan Pleskac the CEO and co-founder of Tropic Square. Jan, I’m really excited to talk to you today. So let’s just, let’s get going by explain what Tropic Square is and then we’ll dive right in. Cause this is, this is really cool.
Jan Pleskac (00:14) Okay, yeah, thank you. Thanks for having us today. Well, Tropic Square, you you can look at different perspectives, but technically we are a fabless semiconductor company because we built our own chip and brought it to the market. So that’s make us a fabless semiconductor company. The kind of fabless semiconductor where we are kind of focusing on is the security. So it’s not really the easy topic at all, I would say. And the chip or the product we have right now is the secure element type of device.
Josh Bressers (00:38) Right, right, right.
Jan Pleskac (00:43) So it’s a kind root of trust application, you know, the dedicated chip, which does the bare minimum, but important for, let’s say, securing the whole system. we have a random number generator and identity and all this stuff. And you want it to have it rooted in the silicon in the minimalistic system, which you can audit. And that’s where, you know, our specialty came in because we want to do it in kind of open source and auditable way.
which means not security by obscurity, but security by transparency.
Josh Bressers (01:14) Right, and that’s what has me so excited. So let’s make sure I’ve got this right, because I did a bunch of research and I think I figured it out. But today, you have a GitHub repo that has all of your firmware in it, and it’s all liberally licensed open source. Is that correct?
Jan Pleskac (01:30) I’m afraid it’s not correct and it’s a bit more complicated. I would not sign that it’s complete by today. Obviously, we’re working on making it better every day. So I believe it will be in better shape when this show is out.
Josh Bressers (01:41) Okay, okay.
Jan Pleskac (01:49) but it’s a bit more complicated. So there is a chip, silicon designed for making the chip. You need some part, probably open source and the chip design is like a programming. So you write the text basically on your computer then run through the tools. It’s converted to schematic or electronic and then gets produced in the target technology. you can think about chips like a 3D printer.
Josh Bressers (01:54) Right? Right?
Jan Pleskac (02:17) Instead of plastics, it just prints the electronic essentially. And the part which can be open sourced is the start of the process, the source code, which is then translated to the electronic implementation. And this very similar to software, this part.
Josh Bressers (02:30) Right, okay.
Right, okay, okay. So that’s the chip. But then you have firmware on the chip and your firmware is in your GitHub repo, right?
Jan Pleskac (02:37) Exactly.
Exactly. I’m afraid still not there yet. You know, yes, yes.
Josh Bressers (02:42) Not all of it. see, this is really complicated. See, this is why I wanted to talk to you, because this is really complicated,
and it’s never as simple as it feels like it should be.
Jan Pleskac (02:51) Yeah, that’s right. And the reason why it’s not there is basically, you know, we started, you know, five years ago and really wanted to do the chip, like not.
you know, like say like if you want to move fast, you go alone. If you want to do long, you go with company. And we decided to move fast at this point. So we did a development in isolation because it was obvious back in the day, back in 2020 when we started at weekend to utilize the full open source two chains and using even open source technology was not there for the chip. So we knew that we, you know, using the commercial technology, there will be a close source big part or
Josh Bressers (03:09) Yes.
Jan Pleskac (03:33) or significant part of the chip will be based on the third party IP cores, just because we want to bring the products which moves the security further or provides the better solution to customers. Not really insisting on building as a fundamentally fully open source because it could be possible like academic project. it’s really the motivation was, okay, let’s make the chip, secure chip, which is better than what’s available in the market, which is solvable. And to do that, we have to,
know, take some compromises and one of them was okay, we will use the commercial technology. Part of the chip will be for party IP code which you license, which will never be on the GitHub. And then there is a key part, which is the digital design, design by Tropic like crypto accelerators and how things are tied together and so on. And this is what we can open and it significantly, you know,
It provides this auditability part basically. So it allows us to talk how the chip is composed, what is open, what is auditable, and the things which are closed source like flash memory, for example, which we use on the silicon, which is the third party license IP. We can’t tell details about it because it’s under NDA, but…
we build the, let’s say, thread model of the device that it doesn’t matter because we can disclose or explain how we encrypt the data and then the memory is just a storage and there is no basically security risk.
Josh Bressers (05:01) Okay, I gotcha. And so this is one of the things I think, and this is one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the show, is I don’t think this is always understood, is especially when you’re working in the domain of hardware, the days of like one organization creating everything top to bottom for hardware is non-existent for the most part, just because it’s so incredibly complicated. So from your perspective, keep me honest here, make sure I’m understanding this correctly, is the work Tropic Square has done.
is very open and you’re obviously aiming to make it as open as possible because from your perspective, the openness is a security feature and we’ll get to that in a moment because not everyone, it’s crazy how many people disagree with that, which is wild. But so you’re incorporating other technologies that are just needed to make chips work. And instead of obviously trying to do it all yourself, you worked with other companies that had already solved these problems, but also unfortunately those solutions
aren’t open and will never be open just because that’s how those companies work. Did I get it right?
Jan Pleskac (06:04) That’s correct, that’s correct. But these blocks are just the building blocks basically. They are the essential bricks and the added value is in the part which can be opened.
Josh Bressers (06:12) For sure, for sure, for sure. Okay, I want to talk about the openness, because this is the thing I’m most excited about is there are an enormous number of hardware companies that talk like the fact that none of the things they do are in the open makes it more secure. And you’ve turned that on its head and you’re saying by opening it up, we’re going to make it more secure than keeping it closed. Explain that concept to me.
Jan Pleskac (06:39) Open doesn’t equal secure, but it’s kind of prerequisite for getting there because basically when you open it, independent pair of eyes can review it. And we know this story from the open source software, right? So at the beginning, it was crazy idea.
Josh Bressers (06:41) Right.
Jan Pleskac (06:57) probably only few believe that it’s possible and it will help and where we are today and still finding the problems, right? Even in the open source software. you know, the fact that something is on the GitHub doesn’t mean that people are looking at it and trying to, you know, scrutinize it, but at least you are enabling this and inviting this cooperation and making things better.
Josh Bressers (07:19) And I think as we’ve seen with hardware especially, like, just because hackers don’t have access to hardware specifications does not stop them in any way.
Jan Pleskac (07:28) That’s the exact point. Sometimes it’s referred to as the status point of industry. And I perfectly understand why it’s that. It’s very historical reasons. And the technology itself, back in the day, very critical innovation. And customer data were not. ⁓
really important like we got a device, you there was a chip, was the know-how, like how to build a chip was the key there and it was the value. But over the time this becomes commodity and you know, vendors protecting themselves, protecting these IPs and this know-how, but how we use the devices in our digital world, you know, it’s like the data are really the asset which has to be protected.
And this shifting paradigm is not captured by the industry yet. And that’s what we’re trying to address. Like saying, okay, you know, it’s no longer about the device itself. It’s really, we have to look at a bigger perspective and protecting the users and users of the devices and the data. Because if we protect these, we protect the whole infrastructure. Like, you know, stupid example, like you might have an IoT device and…
you will not get any harm if somebody is hacking that. Maybe your temperature reading will not be affected. But as it’s a connected device, it can be used as means for attacking the other stuff or using that. And we have to protect that to make sure that the infrastructure is secure.
Josh Bressers (08:59) Right, right. And this is something I think we think about now in the context of maybe like an iPhone or a laptop, where some of those high-end devices have TPMs and various other technologies. But on the low end, we’ve not seen that. And that’s what you’re targeting, right? Is kind of the not top of the funnel. I don’t know what to call that even.
Jan Pleskac (09:18) That’s
right. So we started with like it’s like a TPM chip anyway, the Tropic01. It’s a secure element device. So that’s there, but we targeting the embedded devices, which means these, all these invisible electronics, which really affects our lives. And it’s just probably one very important reason for it. So it’s like the, roots are, you know, we’re connected with Stick and Slush ⁓
It’s a company based in Czech Republic who invented the hardware wallet industry. So they are behind the Trezor hardware wallet. And basically the idea was, let’s protect the fundamental part of the electronic use chip level. Because their product Trezor is building on using the open source software and all the security models built on this transparency or ability. But all the problems which were there were related to the fact that every software has to run on some hardware. And if you have
a black box there in the middle, your kind of protection is very limited. And it’s not about having the absolute security. It’s just really about to know where the limits are and be informed to be able to make the informed decision. Because if the engineers know who designed the system, what’s the limit of the device instead of just saying, hey, it’s secure, it’s perfect, trust us. No, there’s limit, always. So what we do is we say, be careful because this part is 3rd party we have no idea what is it.
It’s supposed to be a memory, but you know what? We’d rather encrypt the data before we start that. you know, then if you know that it’s more like informed decision release, so then you can protect some other layers and just maybe feel more confident about your decisions.
Josh Bressers (10:47) Right, right.
You’re so right. think most software people just assume the hardware is perfect and good and fine and we’re going to ignore everything about it and that it’s not at all how it works. So I love it. That’s pretty cool. Okay. Before we go on, I realized we did not do a good job at all of explaining like what are these kind of secure computing devices you’re talking about here in this context.
Jan Pleskac (11:18) Yes, it’s really, you it’s got like a root of trust or secure element device and it’s really tiny electronic device, small chip on the PCB on the electronics, which really their function is to make sure that it’s, you know, doing the cryptographic computation right.
And it doesn’t mean like do the math, everybody can do the math correctly. That’s not a big deal. But for the chip implementation, there’s not just the algorithm, the aspect of the actual implementation. Because when you implement a cryptographic algorithm and you need to, you know, compute with the keys, because when the chip is operating, just switching from zeros to ones, and there’s a different, you know, current flowing back and forth.
And basically you can sense from these, you know, it’s called side channel traces and it could be like electromagnetic emanation or it could be a power trace difference, which you can basically sense by oscilloscope. And from this, from the difference in this power consumption, you can sense which data are computed. And this is true for pretty much every chips, unless you do something special about it.
And that’s the reason why there are secure elements or dedicated chips because with this chip, we don’t only make sure that the math is done right, but we also make sure that there is no side channel leakage. There is no fault injection attacks. Like if somebody tried to interrupt the computation to inject the fault, know, these are the things which we take care of. And the reason why you have to take it in this dedicated environment or dedicated chips is because
it’s going to make problems like it’s, know, the design is just bigger because instead of computing, you know, A multiple by B in one go, you do in a separate shares. So it means like there’s a bigger area on the chip and it takes more time. So you always with the security go against the practicality or the usability or the cost of the implementation. And it’s better to, or one of the approaches is to, okay, let’s separate the minimalistic environment.
and then you can better control what’s in there. And that’s what we’re essentially doing with the chip.
Josh Bressers (13:31) Sure.
Yes. Yes. And I need to ask because we’re going to go kind of nerdy here, but I’m like a, we’ll say armchair hardware hacker type person, right? I love like doing shenanigans with hardware and in your description for your chip, it’s the, the Tropic Go one, right? You call it. You have a spec here that you say it has voltage glitch detection. How on earth are you dealing with voltage glitches? Because like from when I love watching like hardware hacker people on YouTube and stuff.
and glitching the voltage is like the almost 100 % go-to way to hack most of these security chips. And so I’ve never heard of anyone like defeating it. I’m curious how it works.
Jan Pleskac (14:08) Well, yeah.
I wouldn’t say on the security chips. I would say on the regular chips. Because if you don’t have a glitch detector, you’re probably not secure because it’s exactly the first approach because it’s working perfectly. So yeah.
Josh Bressers (14:25) ⁓ okay, so this is special hardware that detects voltage glitches that normal chips just don’t have.
Jan Pleskac (14:31) because what I said before, like cost, know, and the other incentives which you are trying to do. So basically it means like extra area, extra stuff on the chip, extra IP, you know, and so on. So that’s why you don’t care about on the high performance or general purpose chips. on, and this is exactly, yeah, yeah.
Josh Bressers (14:34) Okay.
I see. and that’s fair because, okay,
okay. And right, because I’m watching people hacking quite often consumer grade IOT gear, which is clearly not spending the money on security chips. Okay, okay, okay. That’s cool. That’s really cool. Okay, okay. The question I’ve been waiting to ask you, and I even sent this in the email when we first got in touch. So you’re talking about having like auditable chips, right? Where you’ve got open design, open hardware.
Jan Pleskac (14:54) Yes.
Josh Bressers (15:13) Like that’s the goal, right? Where everything’s going to be open, anyone’s going to be able to look at it. But the question inevitably is going to come up that if you take an open design, you send it to a chip fab somewhere else, how do you make sure the thing you get back from the chip fab is actually the thing you sent them, right? Because like that’s the espionage we always hear about in the, in like the whole, you know, embedded space is like, oh, they’re adding stuff to the chips in the factories and we can’t detect it and things like that.
Jan Pleskac (15:38) Yes, that’s a very good question. Yeah, sometimes we say like, with this, you know, open and auditable, it really means like, probably backdoor free because there is no way to hide the backdoor.
you know, we can, we can debate what’s the back door is, you know, one of the definition is basically undocumented feature. And you just get surprised by the typically it’s more like about these infrastructure needs for the debugging. Because if you, if you design the chip, you need some, know, the typical chip is not just the functionality, which you can see, or you can exercise this maybe 50 % of the implementation is things to make sure that chip can be tested after the production and so on. So, so it gets very complicated with this hidden infrastructure. And even the fact that
the regular vendors doesn’t talk about presence of these things. It’s already a problem because typically then, you mentioned the glitch, voltage glitching, the next thing is to look for the JTAG, right? So, and try to glitch actually the JTAG because there has to be something for debugging and so on. But I’m probably going away from your question. there is a, it’s very difficult, but doable. It’s not, well, difficult.
You do it like the very advanced attacks are done by basically removing the layer by layer on the chip, doing the imaging, and then you can compare with the reference design, basically. And because you have a reference design, you know what to expect, and you can compare. So technically, this is feasible. Definitely, it’s not something what is typically part of the design process, but…
perfectly doable. There are companies who do the software and and the processing of the chip for exactly this purpose. It’s used for a, you know, like, espionage maybe or, or looking at these, ⁓ IP infringements or these type of applications. Like somebody wants to know, okay, what if somebody else or some, some other chip is using my solution. So the technique is there. It can be used, but it’s typically not used by, you know, checking this because, ⁓
this is not a typical trade model or maybe people just assume, okay, I’m using, you know, all these certified fabrics and ISO processes and everything is, you know, super secret. So they just probably trust. I would say there are the other problems to be solved. at some point you just, okay, delegators says, okay, yes, I trust the FAB. I send the data, you know, they got me the chip and so on. But with these things, there’s…
One of the category which might really not be possible to detect and to be honest, I think it’s fair to mention like the papers about the changing of the materials at the implementation. So what I was talking about before is something that you can spot it. is a structure which will not be there. Some really modification of chip or some piggyback design.
then there might be the attacks which really change the behavior without changing the structure. For example, the signal should go to level one at some input, but it does not in the end. But these are very advanced and I think there are the, let’s say, before.
Put me the other way, like if we get the security to the point that this will be the only problem, then I think we are good. So it’s not really the topic for today’s, right? Or at least not for the tropic square.
Josh Bressers (19:05) Okay, that’s
very fair. Well, and look, I truly believe on that note is you are correct. Like the software is generally crap. There’s so many other problems and espionage on that level is probably pretty rare, maybe nonexistent. I don’t know. I mean, I’m not in that world, but.
I think one of the problems we have in the hardware space is there has historically been an almost total lack of open architecture for people to learn from and study and understand. if we look at the world of open source, I feel like most of the like really good jumps in security have come from the open source world, right? Where there was collaboration and research and understanding.
And I feel like we don’t see that in the hardware space, which is almost a shame, I think.
Jan Pleskac (19:53) Yeah, it’s, you know, times are changing slowly. So definitely there is some activity in this space. And yeah, and you are exactly right. So that’s really the important thing is to basically enable the academia and researchers to start, you know, talking about this freely and trying to find the, you know, the good implementations and yeah, it will take time, but you know, with activities like RISC-V it’s
Josh Bressers (19:57) Yes.
Jan Pleskac (20:17) it’s open standard, it’s really helping in this world. And it just remind me about the things like optimization, basically ignoring the security and just really optimization for implementation or like for the speed.
Josh Bressers (20:18) Yeah.
Jan Pleskac (20:34) for the delivery and there was things like multipliers in microcontrollers when you have a 32-bit microcontroller and when you multiply by zero it just does some shortcut and in the effect instead of taking three or four cycles to compute the results you got it in one cycle which means there’s no constant time flow and constant time programming is not really the topic which is quite common so then microarchitectural leakage and all this stuff they’re just not really in the focus enough.
because there were other priorities, I would say.
Josh Bressers (21:07) Yeah, for
sure. Okay. You just mentioned RISC-V. We’ll assume, I guarantee there’s people listening that have no idea what that even is. So give us like the quick elevator pitch on RISC-V. Cause I love RISC-V. It’s super cool.
Jan Pleskac (21:19) Yeah,
yeah. Okay, so I think we didn’t say at the beginning, the open, you know, open open source doesn’t mean free like a free beer, but it’s like a freedom, right? So that’s, and that’s important because open, you know, RISC-V is, and hopefully I’ll get it right and get it correct, but it’s open standard ⁓ micro control ⁓ specification essentially. And that means that, you know, the people get together and said, okay, maybe we should
know, consolidated effort in this space and designed microcontroller which will have a binary compatible code. So basically we can have a portable software and, you know, agree on the typical features and maybe do the things, you know, easily or in the defined way extensible that more people can jump in and basically allowing everybody to specialize in their differentiation or something what they need to like.
might be the extra accelerator or something like that, and they don’t need to design the whole microcontroller from scratch And this is a big thing because now you have basically, you don’t need to bother, you know, how do I design the microcontroller? You can really focus on your smaller part and you just hook it or connect to the micro, to this RISC-V live core. But because it’s an open standard instruction set architecture, then…
they naturally become also open source implementations and there are the commercial implementations and they coexist, know, one next to each other. And this, if nothing, it just lowers the barrier for entry because it, you know, the people are curious by nature. So it…
helps people to go to the field and schools can start working. And actually RISC-V started as a school type of educational micro control design at the Berkeley, University of Berkeley. I mean, all the validation points are already there and just takes time to introduce into the industry and become robust and so on.
Josh Bressers (23:23) Yeah, I mean, it’s getting there. I have a RISC-V machine in my basement. Like, it is very cool, right? I didn’t think that would be a thing a couple years ago.
Josh Bressers (23:30) All right, Jan So we’re coming to the end and I just really only have one more question for you, which is, you’re working on a secure chip and what’s next? What do you see as kind of the next thing in this space, right? What should we all be kind of paying attention to and watching out for?
You can make crap up, it’s fine. Like I’m asking you to predict the future here, so.
Jan Pleskac (23:50) Yeah, yeah.
Well, know, it’s somebody said like it’s hard to do the prediction, especially if they are about a feature. But at the same time, it’s like, you know, if you want some future, you can design it. And that’s, that’s what we are working on. So basically we, we really still have a lot of work to, to, be finished with the Tropic01, but we hit the volume production and, you know, starting the…
Josh Bressers (24:00) Yeah.
Jan Pleskac (24:18) interesting engagements with the first customers. Hopefully first products will hit the market by end of this year. And for us, there’s a lot of work to be done to, you on the go-to market and getting the business validation or the traction. That’s for sure. But in, you know, there’s interesting time for the security and, you know, I guess listeners know about or heard about these post quantum threats and all this stuff. So we are pretty, you know,
Josh Bressers (24:24) nice.
Jan Pleskac (24:47) busy with defining the next product, which should be something with this really, know, quantum resistant solution. And there’s certain timeline to, you know, when you have to do that. there’s dates like 2030 and 2035 is obsolete. So we will see whether it will shift or which direction, but definitely at the tropic, we really want to be ready for that and prepare the next product.
Josh Bressers (24:55) Nice.
Jan Pleskac (25:16) flexible like we discussed like tropics zero one is a secure element. So it’s the first product, you know, we wanted to start small, but now looking for a series A investment and you know, getting credit for the more like general purpose microcontroller, which will be still in the secure area because there’s still a of a lot of things to be done for the decentralized system and critical infrastructure. So
Josh Bressers (25:30) Thanks.
This, you just blew my mind because you said 2030 and usually in like the tech world, five years is 500 years, right? It’s the same time span and
Jan Pleskac (25:49) Yes,
the deadline is done by government, right? It’s not a technology deadline. It’s a legislation deadline. ⁓
Josh Bressers (25:53) Well, in your…
But you’re also, like you’re
making a real thing and you have to design it, test it, build it, probably get some back, test it some more, fix the things you screwed up. So you know I mean? Like that’s a process.
Jan Pleskac (26:06) Yes, yes,
yes. And because there is no open source design, we have to start from scratch. Imagine the situation like there is already the industry grade starting points, yeah? And you can just really integrate the stuff, so which I hope we will get there. But there’s lot of work to be done. yeah, I mean, the future is bright, in short.
Josh Bressers (26:15) That’s true.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I mean it is,
it, is really cool stuff. And I mean, I’ll even just say, you know, it’s like an armchair, you know, hardware type person. The fact that I can get a PCB made and in two weeks have it in my hand is unheard of. mean, it’s really funny. So I had some PCBs made, you know, I’ve done a bunch of crazy stuff. And when I was a kid, we had to like etch the PCBs with a marker and then, you know, soak it in acid and burn your fingers and probably took years off my life from inhaling.
Jan Pleskac (26:54) this.
Josh Bressers (27:00) God knows what came out of that bath You know, and it’s just, ⁓ it’s so cool. Like we live in an amazing time right now, which is really fun. Okay, Jan but to prevent me from going on and on about how great it is, I’ll give you the floor. let’s bring us home. Like tell us whatever you want us to know. Tell us what to look out for, what we can do. Like anyone interested, contact kind of, it’s up to you. Take the floor.
Jan Pleskac (27:07) this.
Yes, okay.
yeah, let me start. don’t think I, I think I did not answer your first question about this open source stuff and so on. So basically I this not there yet, not there yet, but something is already there on the GitHub. And that’s, that’s really what we call the LibTropic, which is the SDK and it’s open source. Yes, this permissive license on it. And basically this is the piece of software which you need to integrate into your application, your microcontroller to talk to Tropic chip over the SPI.
Josh Bressers (27:33) It’s getting there.
Jan Pleskac (27:49) We started with the development kit. So there is a Raspberry Pi, Shield, Arduino Shield and Micro ESO. Some standard platform to enable developers with their favorite platforms. And yes, this information can be found on the TropicSquare GitHub. And we also created a USB stick, which is really the demonstrator. It looks like the hardware wallet or…
Josh Bressers (27:56) nice.
Jan Pleskac (28:16) some authenticator device, but it’s not meant to be a final product. It’s really the demonstrator of the Tropic01 capabilities. So there is a application which you can run from the Linux command line and use this serial communication. So it’s not like a secure communication, but really demonstrating how the chip can behave. And we do this to enable customers. So we got a chip in…
April, sorry, February this year. So it’s only a few months now. And been very busy with the customer support. We have to learn a of stuff there. We started as a chip design company. So we’ve been learning how to ship the box with the dev kit. So it sounds simple for somebody who’s in that from…
whole their life, but for us, it was a pretty interesting exercise. So yes, I definitely would love to, you if people can reach out to join interested, you know, we’re very supported. Very interesting to actually hear their use cases and understand what type of problems they are trying to solve because we really ⁓ believe in this cooperation in open discussion and already.
Josh Bressers (29:04) Yeah, yeah.
Jan Pleskac (29:23) with the initial customers, you ⁓ we got a lot of ideas how to improve the firmware, which is running on the chip and making the, let’s say the chip useful, because we’ve been thinking on some sort of minimalistic way just to demonstrate the hardware features. But then you can design some, let’s say, application logic to combine those multiple commands together and so on. And it, you know, brings a value to the end application, which we have no idea about. So there’s the point where the discussion is very necessary and the openness
again, helps very well. So far we’ve been at the shows in Europe. Hopefully we will do the US this year as well. yes, that’s a lot of interesting stuff. So looking forward to hear from your listeners and hopefully our future customers, what we can focus on.
Josh Bressers (30:14) This has been I mean this has been a ton of fun yet I want to thank you so much like this is this kind of topic is right at my alley and the fact that you’re doing it in the open is just like so
Jan Pleskac (30:26) Yes, thank you very much. mean, it’s a very, you yeah, I’m just, you know, the face for the company, but there’s the whole team and they really been working hard on that. And it’s, it’s a bit pity that we didn’t start the designing in the open. It will be super cool, you know, on top of it, but it is what it is. And we just, yeah, we just have to move on.
Josh Bressers (30:44) Let’s start.
No, this
is great. mean, and look, you can come back when you’ve got your next thing that’s fully opened, right? There you go. Awesome. All right, Jan All right, Jan, I want to thank you so much. This has been a blast.
Jan Pleskac (30:55) Yes, yes, exactly. That’s definitely important. Yeah.
Yeah, thank you Josh. Take care. Bye bye.